Danielle Linzer Director of Learning and Public Engagement, The Andy Warhol Museum
Join two progressive museum thinkers and practitioners whose values drive them.
Danielle Linzer is a museum educator and leader committed to advancing inclusion and equity in museums, and Kate Livingston is a museum consultant infusing anti-racism and social justice principles into her work. In this frank, conversational session, Linzer and Livingston will reflect on the challenges of adapting to the current political administration in the United States and what it means for museums. When immigrants, refugees, people of color, Muslims, LGBTQ+ individuals, people with disabilities, and others are openly marginalized and vilified, and the value of the arts, sciences, and humanities is publicly questioned and politically downsized, how can we respond?
Linzer and Livingston will pose challenging questions to each other and share examples from their own experiences and from the wider field. This discussion will explore how cultural workers can support political and social action, community engagement, organizing, and revolution when it’s needed most.
Danielle Linzer: Alright. So my name is Danielle Linzer, as you heard, I’m the Director of Learning and Public Engagement at the Andy Warhol Museum. I’m going to stand over here so that you can see me because I sort of disappear a little bit behind the podium. But we want to talk a bit today about personal activism and personal values in professional contexts. So I think this is a great kind of segue way from the previous speakers who were incredibly powerful and inspiring.
Kate Livingstone: Absolutely, this whole time has been so incredibly inspiring, so thanks for being here with us. We’re really excited to talk about how our values propel us and not just our professional values and what we bring to the workplace but what we do at home and our personal values and how we infuse those into our work. I really should have probably warned you about this. I never thought that putting up a picture of our president was going to have to meant a trigger warning. So, apologies for that but that’s where we are. So change affects museums and we’ve had a lot of change in the past year, right.
Danielle Linzer: Change affects museums when immigrants, refugees, people of colour, Muslims, LGBTQ+ folks, people with disabilities and so many more are openly marginalised and vilified in our society it affects us.
Kate Livingstone: Absolutely. Change affects museums when there is an undeniable epidemic of police murdering black folks in our communities and there is no justice, it affects us.
Danielle Linzer: Change affects museums when power, greed and corruption are put ahead of our natural resources, our planet, our climate, our future, our human lives, it affects us.
Kate Livingstone: Change affects museums when plastic monuments fall by force and see the power of symbols and objects as tools of racism and hate, it affects us.
Danielle Linzer: And sometimes museums respond. So we’ve found so many incredible and uplifting examples of the diversity of responses that have occurred in the past year, just through those doors there are a bunch of incredible examples but also all of the speakers over the last couple of days have shared their work. And so we’re going to talk about a few of those examples that inspire us or that we think embody certain strategies but we want to thank you all for the work that you’re doing and sort of give a nod and acknowledgement to the collective power here.
Kate Livingstone: Absolutely, and we know we’re just getting started, right? So we wanted to start with this one. Museums are marching, protesting and celebrating alongside their communities. What’s more, they’re making sure they’re visible, they’re carrying banners that says, “Museum,” and they’re making sure that that presence is known. We’ve seen this often in Pride parades, like what you see here in San Francisco but museums have been showing up, visible and active, at the People’s Climate March and the Women’s marches around the country this year. One notable example is the Field Museum in Chicago, not only have they been an active presence during Pride for many years but their President and CEO, openly and unapologetically, makes it about the Field Museum and their active support and role in the march for Climate Justice. So we’re curious, bear with us and raise your hands, how many of you work at or with a museum that’s joined parades, marches or protests. Alright, that’s exciting. Have a look around the room, do it one more time, take a look, so you can see, we can see it all. And think about it, think to yourself, if not, if your hand is not up, why not?
Danielle Linzer: So many museums have also issued public statements on their websites and on bags, on social media, where they take an unequivocal stand on political events and issues. So one example of this, the day following the election results last year, at the Lower Eastside Tenement Museum in New York City, which is my alma mater, the Friends of the Museum issued a statement on their website and on social media affirming their value of immigrants in our community, so I’m going to read a quick quote from that. “The Tenement Museum has always been about how people from many nations brought their dreams to this country and about how Americans became a people. Those of us who are longer-settled Americans need to be accepting of newcomers bringing their hopes to a new land and dedicating their individual and family struggles to the common future that all of us continue to build together. We know that many voters yesterday sought to distance themselves from what we at the museum regard as this nation’s foundational principle, that immigration allows us to become more than we already are as a people.”
And they were not alone, for example the J. Paul Getty Museum, following the announcement of the Muslim ban, the immigration ban, whatever euphemism you want to use to describe the Executive Order that was issued by President Trump in January of 2017, issued a statement saying, “The recent Executive Order barring entry into the United States for citizens of seven nations is antithetical to the values of the Getty and we condemn it in the strongest possible terms. Curiosity, diversity and tolerance are the core values of the humanities, values that require the free movement of people and ideas.”
And some institutions went beyond words, right? We’re going to talk about many of those, but for example the Guggenheim Museum initiated a nationwide effort to produce amicus briefs in support of legal challenges to Trump’s immigration ban. AAMD, AAM, College Art Association, and over 100 art museums signed on in support of those efforts. So, let’s do this again. How many of you work at or with a museum that has made a values-based public statement in the last year?
Kate Livingstone: Alright, look around.
Danielle Linzer: And so it’s great to see that kind of balance there, so you can ask yourself again, if not, why not?
Kate Livingstone: So it’s still, we think, way too relatively infrequent that museums use explicit words like social justice, equity, anti-racism in their missions but some do and it’s happening more and more. The National Museums of Liverpool Network is probably the one that many of you are most familiar with and part of their mission reads as this, “We do not avoid contemporary issues or controversy,” or controversy, as they would say, right? “Museums help promote good citizenship and act as agents of social change. National Museums Liverpool believes in the concept of and campaigns for social justice.”
But my favourite might not be a mission, quote unquote, but the Culture Lab manifesto, recently released by the Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center. While not a mission, per se, it’s gorgeous, inspiring and as an extension of their incredible Culture Lab work over the past couple of years which you’re seeing an image of on this slide, so I wanted to read you part of that manifesto in hopes that you’ll get as inspired as I am. “We at the Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center believe that museums engaging communities should be built upon,” and this is just a sample, “A culture of representation, prioritise local artists, participants and organisers, nothing about community without those communities. A culture of equity, pay artists, pay artists fairly, dismantle hierarchies, everyone shares in the work. A culture of action, stay woke. We have a social contract with one another to protect the vulnerable and ensure human rights for everyone.”
So while a mission are just words, it’s a start. It’s also a concrete way to state your values publicly and ensure that museum staff, visitors, stakeholders and your public know where and for what you stand. So how many of you work at or with a museum that has explicitly put anti-oppression language in their mission? Little bit fewer hands there. So ask yourself, if not, why not?
Danielle Linzer: Many institutions have also seen their opportunity to push the doors open wider and to welcome new audiences and old audiences in for that sense of connection and to make use of their collections and their programmes in meaningful, responsive ways. So one example of this, and another shout out to Scott Stulen at the Philbrook Museum, but just weeks after the election they made an announcement that they were going to be issuing free memberships to all pre-K through 12th grade teachers in the entire state of Oklahoma, the Philbrook is in Tulsa, and really with, accompanied by a message that stated, “We live in a divided nation, that much is clear, but Philbrook must be a place that unites, gathers and encourages dialogue, not a place that is guided by fear but one that sees possibility, opportunity and joy in our neighbours.” And so taking this kind of decisive action, one that has, kind of, a cost or financial implications attached to it, as a really significant public step towards affirming the value of the museum in these times. So how many of you work for institutions that have, in one way or another, through offering free admission or memberships or other opportunities for the community to use your space, how have you opened your doors wider? Or have you opened your doors wider?
Kate Livingstone: Raise your hands for that one.
Danielle Linzer: Right and so the follow up question is if not, why not?
Kate Livingstone: So social media provides an avenue for museums to be responsive about political and social changes in real time or near real time. So the first time I really noticed an outpouring of this was when the Supreme Court ruled on marriage equality in June 2015, you saw really just so many dozens of rainbow buildings, right? Pictures just pouring in on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram as museums wanted to be publicly seen as welcoming inclusive spaces. So Jon, who we heard from yesterday, from Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, talked about what you’re seeing here which is the marquee they use on their building, sending messages to passers-by, indicating where they stand on issues like protecting DACA and healthcare. So how many of you work with or at a museum that’s used social media or your physical building to take a stand? And ask yourself, if not, why not?
Danielle Linzer: Signs have also changed. So one example of this is the rise in the offering of all gender or gender inclusive restroom facilities in a range of cultural institutions and public spaces. This is something I worked on for a long time when I was at the Whitney Museum of American Art and we were successful in implementing this throughout our new building, but it’s now popping up at museums around the country. The Walker Art Center, the Worcester Museum, even the Westmoreland Museum of Art in sort of rural Pennsylvania has attached language and signage to its existing restroom facilities encouraging people of all genders to feel welcome using the facility that best fits their identity and their preferences. This is not limited, of course, to restrooms. Other forms that signage have taken are welcome signs, we had a great example from the folks over at [unintelligible 0:11:54.6] the other day of their decision to actually post their internal institution equity statement in different locations throughout the building to really make those values public for their visitors. So how many of you work at museums where you have changed signage to be more inclusive of your public?
Kate Livingstone: That’s pretty good.
Danielle Linzer: Yeah, and if not, why not?
Kate Livingstone: So we’ve heard a little bit in the previous session about the programmes at Eastern State Penitentiary so I’m going to stick on that to talk about programmes that can relate to the prison industrial complex. One of the things that museums are doing is using programmes, right, as a way to extend their museums’ messages about reach [unintelligible 0:12:36.3]. So the Whitney’s a good example as well, in New York, hosted this free and open to the public event called Speak Out on Inauguration Day in Solidarity with the J20 art strike, which included artists, writers and activists coming together to affirm their values, to resist and reimagine the current political climate.
The programme you see up here is one of many programmes across the country that was organised in partnership with local community organisers and activists as part of the Humanities Action Lab. It’s a collaborative travelling exhibition called States of Incarceration. So Humanities Action Lab’s a coalition of universities that partner with local community organisations in public spaces to produce these community-curated public humanities projects so we’re hoping that we’re bringing up some new ones and some old ones and that you’ll look into these further. But we wanted to ask you the same question about this, how many of you work at or with museums who created new programmes to respond to social and political changes? That’s fantastic. Good, we’ve been really inspired by many of them that we’ve heard about yesterday and today. So again, if not, why not?
Danielle Linzer: Museums have reimagined their collection displays and their exhibition programmes in response to current events in our political climate. So one example of that, and this was in February 2017, just a few weeks after the immigration ban was announced, the Museum of Modern Art in New York rehung its permanent collection galleries to feature works of art created by artists who came from the seven nations who had been banned from entry under the executive order. So they were accompanied by explicit labels that spoke to their intent, “This work is by an artist from a nation whose citizens are being denied entry into the United States, according to a Presidential Executive Order issued on January 27th 2017. This is one of several such artworks from the museum’s collection installed throughout the fifth-floor galleries to affirm the ideals of welcome and freedom as vital to this museum, as they are to the United States.” So how many of you work at or with a museum that has re-examined or reconsidered exhibits and collections in response to our present moment? And if not, why not? So museums respond, we’ve seen many examples of that. But sometimes they don’t.
Kate Livingstone: So we’re going to transition to that. You’ve seen this shirt around, right? So sometimes museums choose to stay quiet, to not speak up and even to silence their staff. I’m aware of a science museum whose CEO instead of supporting the climate march, made it pretty clear that staff were welcome to participant but on their own time and not as official museum representatives. In fact, staff were discouraged from wearing clothes with the museum’s logo and that’s not an isolated incident, that’s not the only time that happened, that’s just the one I know about. So of course it created this internal culture of distrust and confusion and community members spoke up and asked why a museum with science in the title wouldn’t be a leading voice at such an event. So obviously we also wanted to shout out to LaTanya Autry and Mike because this shirt is amazing. If you haven’t ordered one, order one. I already ordered mine, it came two hours after I got on my plane to come here.
Danielle Linzer: So change affects us, it affects museum workers, it affects us both within and beyond our individual roles, our institutions, our communities, our cities, as citizens of this country and of the world.
Kate Livingstone: Yeah, it gets personal, right? Sometimes we work for the kinds of museums we just told you about, these museums who get it, these museums who are actively working towards social change, but sometimes you don’t and often, you don’t. And even for the more progressive workspaces that some of you have talked about and have the pleasure of working with or in, it’s likely there are more changes that you want to make. So, as we heard yesterday from Alli and Mara, so much amazing museum activism is happening outside of office hours, it’s happening at home, you’re not getting compensated or paid for that extra labour which, as an aside, needs to stop like right now. So, and amazing work on Day of Facts, you two. So whether you’re working from inside a museum like Danielle is, or whether you’re working alongside of them like I do as a consultant, you’re working as part of a system. So sometimes your values beautifully align and often they don’t, so then what?
Danielle Linzer: So let’s take a moment just to think about what are those personal values that you hold? What are the values that are so deeply embedded and non-negotiable that they drive you forward, they motivate your work, they are a touchstone that you return to again and again in your practice? What are the values that drive you to make a change? We want to share a few examples of activist, organisers, museum workers who we think are doing work that is truly value-driven and who inspire us.
Kate Livingstone: That’s one.
Danielle Linzer: Hi, Monica.
Kate Livingstone: So you just witnessed the powerhouse that is Monica Montgomery. Perhaps there’s little to add but, you know, I’m going to shout her out anyway. So Monica is a dynamic intentional changemaker and, more importantly, she calls us to be upstanders alongside her, reminding us we can make change and we need to for the issues that we care the most about. So you can hear more about Monica’s story by watching that TEDx talk that she did, it’s really, it’s amazing, I’ve watched it more times than I should even admit.
But Monica, you may remember having seen her, or if you don’t know her well, is she was fired from her teaching job after talking about community care, which she just mentioned, and Trayvon Martin’s tragedy in her classroom during the beginning of the Black Lives Matter movement. But that is what prompted her to start the first mobile social justice museum, Museum of Impact. She also teamed with the amazing Stephanie Cunningham, who was our chair yesterday, and as we heard, is going to be teaming with Dr Amber Johnson, so clearly Monica’s just getting started. This slide’s also a good reminder of my personal motto which I suggest you adopt immediately, listen to black women and events. So, moving on.
Danielle Linzer: So hopefully some of you are becoming familiar with Paula Santos. I saw her, she got a shout out in the museums’ respond space but Paula’s an old friend and colleague of mine from the Whitney, she’s currently at the National Museum of Mexican Art in Chicago. She recently launched an independent podcast called Cultura Conscious and in that she has really thoughtful in-depth conversations with other practitioners, exploring topics related to racial inequity in museums. Ideas such as anti-racist pedagogy, help support DACA students as museum workers, kindness and leadership, so really smart, really in-depth dialogues and I asked Paula about her decision to launch this project at this time and one thing she described to me was that she was also in New York, she was part of a community of practice of museum and cultural workers of colour who would meet regularly because they realised, she says, “We realised how our institutions could not be the place where we worked out our politics because of power dynamics, colleagues who felt threatened and a complete lack of understanding of the issues themselves.”
So she has this real community, she later moved to Chicago and, you know, as happens when we relocate, we lose some communities, we might discover new ones but she said, you know, “In New York I realised we could come together as professionals and create for ourselves without institutions. In Chicago I realised that I could create for myself and, in fact, it was my responsibility to do so.” So she said it was really the first time she had the time, the freedom, the motivation and the courage to start to put her voice out there in a more public space. So something that I’ve heard a lot in talking to people in doing this work is about finding community, whether it’s inside your museum or your organisation or externally, to support the development of your ideas, the expression of your values and guide the work of forming these movements. So if you haven’t checked this out yet, culturaconscious.com it’s on, you can download on your podcatcher.
Kate Livingstone: You can listen to it on the way, it’s amazing stuff.
Danielle Linzer: She has a soothing voice.
Kate Livingstone: She really does. So it would be remiss not to mention Porchia Moore, Dr Porchia Moore and Nikhil Trivedi. So Porchia and Nikhil are regular contributors and writers for the Incluseum, some of you may have seen them there and Nikhil was also just on the now AAM-supported Museopunks podcast talking about gender and masculinity so check them out there. But these two beautiful humans also created the Visitors of Color Tumblr which, in their words, is a space for museum folks to be able to learn from the perspectives of marginalised people. They say, “We also see this as a form of activism, giving folks who may not feel safe or welcome in our institutions a little bit of agency in their relationship with museums.” So if you haven’t checked out this Tumblr, do.
In addition to these really gorgeous visitor profiles and quotes, there is a Visitors of Color guide to the resistance which is this really amazing guide for, just another quote, “Using museums in times of oppression and social injustice for personal empowerment.” So it lists some really amazing things and I really suggest you take a look. So they’re powerful activists and leaders in their own communities but also for our community and really are just kickstarting the museum revolution in so many ways, if you don’t know these two, check them out.
Danielle Linzer: Quickly wanted to talk about the work of Margaret Middleton, a Boston-based exhibit developer and designer, museum geek, queer activist, self-identified gee who has spoken all over the country about the importance of family inclusion in museums. So 40% of visitors to museums come as part of a family unit and yet, as Margaret writes, we often use family, quote unquote, to mean a nuclear family with two heterosexual legally married parents of the same race and their biological children residing in the same household and a lot of our programmes, our communications, our facilities are structured for that model which isn’t, doesn’t really describe the vast majority of families as they exist today. And so she’s done a great deal of work developing tools and training and approaches to make our interactions with families and our spaces for families more inclusive of the incredible diversity of these constellations that exist so shout out to Margaret.
Kate Livingstone: Absolutely. Yeah, so while we didn’t want to be centring on us for this presentation, we want to inspire you by the people and museums we just showed, we also wanted to, you know, lead by example, tell you how this sort of thing has inspired us and how these folks have inspired us. So we’re going to end with sharing our own journeys and I know we’re probably going to get to be, or probably now a little bit over, so I appreciate it, it’s not us, I think the session before went a little bit longer so we appreciate you sticking with us. So these are our personal stories of how our values have gotten sort of embedded in our personal activism and then in our work, so we’ll start with Danielle.
Danielle Linzer: So this is the Andy Warhol Museum where I currently work. I moved to Pittsburgh maybe a year, year and a half ago to assume a new commission but as sometimes happens, I arrived, the director who hired me departed, my first day was his last day, and so I found myself in a new role, in a new town, in a new space where we didn’t have a director, we didn’t have a strategic plan and we were an institution in transition, that lasted probably eight or nine months while we did a national search for new leadership.
But of course, the unimaginable happened in that time, Pennsylvania, my beautiful home state when red for the first time since the 1980s, we found ourselves under a new, some would say hostile and terrifying administration, and we’re kind of reeling, thinking about what do we do, how do we respond? The Andy Warhol Museum, part of what brought me there was its reputation for progressive action and politics within the museum field, its legacy of programming and, of course, Andy Warhol’s lived experience as someone who was the child of poor, working-class immigrants in Depression-era Pittsburgh who was an openly gay man who was often vilified for his sexuality, even by other queer artists who deemed him too swish.
So a lot of our programmes are really about thinking about people who exist somehow outside, you know, sort of, broad definitions of normalcy and how we can bring them in with accessible art and relevant programming. And so I was kind of pushing, right, all of my colleagues and senior leadership, you know, we have to make public, look at what all these other institutions are doing, we need to make a public statement, we need to make admission free, we need to do this, we need to make a protest but we simply didn’t have leadership in place to be able to take that stance and take that risk and take that on.
And so, you know, we were, we were kind of grasping around, it got to the point where we even got phone calls, I think it was Inauguration Day, we got a phone call from a visitor who said, “What are you guys doing today? I know if anybody in town’s doing something, it’s you, what are you doing?” And we were doing nothing and it killed me. And so I decided, OK, in the absence of, you know, for whatever reason, many of us work in institutions that cannot take or will not take a public stance on some of these questions, whether it’s a fear of alienating funders or members, whether it’s about kind of maintaining this notion of neutrality, right, or whether it’s because you don’t have strong leadership in a moment of transition. So, we can go to the next slide, so we decided, well, what are we, oh, no. Some of them didn’t, some of them kind of didn’t come through.
Kate Livingstone: OK, this is my fault, I designed this.
Danielle Linzer: We decided, well, what can we do? We can walk the walk, right? We can do the programmes, we can extend the welcome in other ways, it’s not about a statement on social media, it’s about who’s coming through our doors and how they feel when they’re here and how we support our staff and our visitors in expression, in solidarity. And so just a few kind of little examples of what form this took. The image in the top corner is from our LGBTQ+ youth prom, which is co-organised with groups of queer and trans youth from throughout Pittsburgh and surrounding communities and this year we blew it out with the theme of Make America Gay Again. And we had, we broke our attendance records, we had hundreds of young people travel, some travelling for hours to reach the museum because it really represented a safe and inclusive celebratory space where they felt alienated in their home school environment. So that was a real win for us.
We also kind of got the fact that, you know, we talked about Andy Warhol’s experiences, part of an immigrant family in an immigrant community, how that informed his upbringing, his work, his career and his life story and we thought about, “Oh, we’re talking a lot about the experience of Carpatho-Rusyn immigrants in Pittsburgh 100 years ago, what can we talk about, what’s relevant now?” So we started to form partnerships and to reach out to immigrant refugee service organisations in our community today, welcoming them with a range of different kind of events, programmes, going out into the community to do that work.
We also, our staff, you know, wanted to express their feelings. So whether it was lunchtime postcard writing where we brought, you know, the addresses of our elected officials, we brought, you know, our shop donated postcards, we purchased stamps, we brought art supplies and we just carved out time and space for our hobbies to come together and to participate in civic action in ways small and large. So you can see here a little stack of postcards we wrote one day, this also extended to using the art supplies in our studio so our staff could make their protest signs or things like that. So even if we couldn’t be out, you know, kind of brandishing banners, representing the museum, we could acknowledge and support the efforts of our staff to express those political views. So, I guess the one point that I wanted to make with all of this is that, you know, we make decisions constantly in our roles, whatever position you want to keep within your institution, whether you’re at the front desk as a member of visitor services, whether you’re the Director, CEO, work in education, you make decisions small and large about how you welcome the public, about who you feature in your advertising materials, about what language you use, about what prices you set, about all of those things, and those choices matter. They matter to our visitors, they send messages, they express our values so I encourage you to get in touch with those values and to let them guide your decision making every step of the way.
Kate Livingstone: Alright, so we’ll finish with mine. When I was an internal museum worker, I generally felt that my values were fairly well aligned with my museum’s but pretty regularly I felt like we weren’t centring our community enough, we weren’t speaking up when it mattered enough, and we weren’t moving fast enough. So when I started consulting, I was like, “I’m my own boss, I’m going to do it differently. I can be like totally, unapologetically me and I can really own my values and be unapologetic about it.” So I remember when I first decided to include my pronouns on my website and when I put terms like anti-racism on my website, it felt exhilarating and terrifying. You know, I wondered, was I making a terrible mistake? The little voice of a white cis-gendered privileged woman said in my head.
So I’d been told so many times that my politics were a bit much and I was told that I shouldn’t always centre equity access and inclusion, I needed to meet people where they were at. People warned me that I would lose clients. So that didn’t happen, it didn’t happen at all. Putting my values online and on paper, but most importantly, living them daily in my work has had an amazing result. I haven’t lost clients, quite the opposite, I’ve gotten the right clients and they seek me out because our values align. So I’m sure there are some museums who don’t like my politics and I want to publicly thank them for not reaching out to me so that I don’t have to say no to them, so that works out well for both of us.
Finally, I want to say that watching and listening, really, really listening, especially to black, brown and Native women, to feminists, to gender non-binary folks in our field and also to all marginalised folks both inside and outside of museums has inspired me to take greater and more direct action. So I wanted to end with telling you a tiny little bit about Fund the Change. I know we all like to ask ourselves, like, “What can I do? What can I do?” But I think most of us know, I knew, I just had to do it. So at the beginning of this year, I started Fund the Change. It’s a fund that gives one-time gifts with no strings attached to activists and change makers in our field. A percentage of my revenue is automatically allocated to that fund and so far nine gifts have been made. Priority is given to people of colour, Native and indigenous peoples, LGBTIQ+ folks, folks with disabilities, those with financial disadvantages and also women. So there are at least, I don’t know how many of us are left, there are at least 40, 50 badass museum activists and change makers in this room, I really encourage you to come see me or Google Expose Your Museum Fund the Change, you can learn more, you can nominate people and you can also donate if it’s something that you want to support. It’s been amazing. So Fund the Change is my direct response to the pervasive inaction in our field, it’s also an acknowledgement of my own privilege and a way to hold myself accountable, personally and professionally, to shifting the power dynamic. And hey, look at who the first recipient was. So change can affect us right, and we affect change so we’ll end with that. Do you want to say anything? No, I think we’re done, thank you so much for being here.